How We Win Back Workers — With Secretary Marty Walsh

Dan Koh: We live in a society where second chances are rare. But my next guest is an example of why you don't give up on someone. Marty Walsh went from rock bottom to mayor of Boston, United States secretary of labor, and now executive director of the National Hockey League Players Association. He joins us to talk about his rise from the construction site to the Cabinet Room, his struggle with alcoholism, what both parties need to be doing better, and how Democrats win back working class voters. Let's swear into the people's cabinet, Marty Walsh. Secretary Marty Walsh, welcome to the People's Cabinet.

Marty Walsh: Thanks for having me. This is fun. 

Dan Koh: I wanted to make sure that people saw the extent to the trinkets in this office. You want to give us 30 seconds on this?

Marty Walsh: Everything up there means something. I don't know if they can see the top shelf, but my father ran for executive board in Laborers Local 223 a long, long time ago. Was elected, served in the legislature. Picture of me, Larry, and Warren the day I got elected, sworn in as mayor of Boston. Picture of my mother's class in school, my father's class in school. Max, my grandbaby, in the middle there. Things from when I was a state rep to mayor to labor secretary, and just a whole bunch of everything up there means something to me. That's up on that shelf. It means something to me personally. And it's just, it's important. In that picture in the bottom where you see the green outline, that's my—that picture was in my grandmother's house in Ireland. So I took that from Ireland with me at one point. So everything, everything that means sentimental to me up there.

Dan Koh: For those listening, there's a lot of trinkets right now that we're taking a look at. And if you look at the video version of the podcast, you can check it out. But I want you to take me back to April 23rd, 1995, because that was a monumental moment for you.

Marty Walsh: It was. Let me just go back a little bit further. I grew up in Boston. I got into it a little while. Parents from Ireland, immigrant parents. I have a brother, and you know, grew up in a middle-class, I guess, house at the time. Probably more of a lower class today, as far as how much money my father made and work-wise. But you know, I had dreams and aspirations of running for office and being involved in politics. And I was involved in every campaign, you know, from the age of like, when I can remember holding signs. And I wanted to get into that area. And I was kind of involved in the community. I was coaching, I was running Little League, I was coaching softball, I was coaching Little League, coaching hockey, coaching a bunch of different things, and involved in my community. And I had—I had dropped out of college, but I was working for the Laborers Union at the time. And in the daytime, if you saw me, I was a civic activist, I guess you can call me. Not quite what we talk about today, but involved in the community. And at night, I would be out drinking. And you know, I first started drinking many years ago. It was, it was, it was fun. Everyone did it. And was it like older people would just influence you to do it, or the guys after, you just do it? You just, you just do it. I mean, you just kind of, you know, you just kind of go out and have a few beers and have some fun with it, whatever. And over time, alcoholism, progression over time, that turned from having fun to things happened. I blacked out, you know, said the things I regret, I didn't remember what happened. It was like stories that you think about when you think about those times.

Dan Koh: Yeah, I hear you share them at Alcoholics Anonymous when we talk at meetings and stuff like that.

Marty Walsh: And April 23rd, my office was moving from Newton to Burlington, and we were packing the office up, and it's just another weekend, if you will, as far as drinking-wise. And you know, completely get obliterated, you know, three or four nights in a row, three nights in a row.

Dan Koh: Was there any reason that precipitated that?

Marty Walsh: No, it just, just, just did it. Like I go out, have a beer or have a couple of beers, and you know, I couldn't have a couple beers. It's like you and I go for a couple of drinks, and you'd go home after two, and I'd stay there for another 20. And it's just, it's just the way it was. And I never wanted the kind of the party to end, if you will. On April 23rd, I was out, I woke up on a Sunday morning. You know, I had had three days of disaster blackouts and everything else from the days before that. And I, you know, started drinking in the morning. And then I went to the Bruins game that afternoon, and that was actually the Bruins game—not because I was fighting, because I was loud and drunk and out of control in some ways. And we went across the street to the bar across the street and had, you know, ordered a drink there, and I passed out at some point along the way. Anyway, I went home, was probably about 6:00, roughly. I wasn't in a blackout, but I was just—had someone take me home. I was kind of in a grab—they call it in and out. And you know, my roommate at the time took me home, and I woke up that night, 9:00, in my house. And I had, I had done, I had woken up with this feeling a lot, with this like emptiness inside. Like I did it again, I came away dead again, not wanting to truly address the problem. I tried to stop drinking a couple of times before that for a couple of days, a couple of weeks, but nothing real, nothing through any professional help. And you know, I went to work the next day, went to see my boss. He shut the door, and he said, you're an alcoholic. And you know, I agreed because I was in trouble at work. I didn't necessarily agree with him at the time, but I felt like they—he's on. And you know, he recommended I make a phone call to the emergency program, emergency assistance program, EAP. I called the counselor, he interviewed me, I passed the test. He recommended I go in-patient in a treatment facility. That was not in my plan. My plan was to maybe go to AA meetings—I had gone to one in my life at that point—go see a counselor, talk to a counselor a little bit about it. And then after a few months, when the heat's off, you know, go back, drink like a normal person. That wasn't in the cards for me. I end up going to treatment. And when I was there, I got an education on alcoholism, and I got some tools I can use to defend myself against a drink, but it's really on the person working the program, if you will. So I got out of treatment, I started going to meetings, I saw a counselor, and my life just got better right quickly. I lost the desire for a drink.

Dan Koh: And I lost that desire, and my life started to just come together. You said something interesting, that the union helped you, and that you're the boss. So tell us about, first of all, what a union is, and then also how they provide services for people.

Marty Walsh: Unions were created really at the turn of the 19th/20th century. Most of them, they were created because back in the end of the 18th century into the 19th century into the 20th century, there was no work rules or conditions or safety or on salary, and there was certainly no benefits. Employers, if you had a good employer, you were taken care of; if you had a bad employee, you’d just be taken advantage of. And unions really started to form. You know, the labor unions formed a lot of the building trades unions. You had the mineworkers form, and you had a lot of different unions. And really what a union allowed back then was a collective voice—have somebody speak on behalf of an industry or group of workers, whether it's contracting, collective bargaining salary-wise or pension-wise or benefit-wise or whatever it might be. And it evolved over time into other areas and other industries. And I think, you know, when you think about unions, it's about having worker protection, really what it is, and having worker protection for workers that need protection. Because if you didn't have unions in some cases or labor laws, employers could just automatically, arbitrarily get rid of people, pay them whatever they want to pay, make as much profits as possible, and not have to provide benefits. And we would be a very different country if we didn't have organized labor in it. I mean, my union at the time, fast forward to 1995, we were in a health care plan, in the health care plan. We have benefits, and those benefits provide if you have cancer, if you have, you know, something you have to go to the hospital for, your mental illness, you have addiction, you're covered under the plan. And I was fortunate to have a benefit plan that covered substance use, and you know, covered mental health if you needed it, and things like that. And you know, if you don't have those health care plans, families—there's no question that people are watching this right now, and their head is nodding because they have family members that are struggling with mental health or substance use, and they have no idea where to turn to, and they have no idea about health care and benefits and plans and what do we do with this situation. Because not everyone has that support network around them.

Dan Koh: Do you ever wonder where you would be if that didn't exist?

Marty Walsh: You know, I think about it a lot. I mean, maybe I, you know, I probably—working, hopefully if I didn’t get fired, working for the labor unions in a capacity, and nothing wrong with that. I love the labor union, but all the dreams I had when I was 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, I would be thinking back on if I took a different road, I’d be in a different place. So, you know, I think about both of those sides. You never forget where you came from, because I come from the building trades, from the labor union. My father was a laborer from Ireland, and my mother was from Ireland, and she was a homemaker for many years. So you can't forget where you came from. But you also think about the opportunity that recovery presented to me, which was amazing.

Dan Koh: And when you say laborer, what did you do every day when you would show up to work?

Marty Walsh: I was in construction for a few years, and then I went to work for the Laborers Health and Welfare Benefit Office. My uncle’s in construction—literally on the site, I was working on the site, construction-wise. And then my uncle was able to get me into a job in the benefit office, where I was a collection agent, and I went around and talked to contractors that were delinquent on benefit payments to members. And so, just technically speaking on unions, I think it's just important for people who don't really know: is it you pay in a certain amount of your wages to the union, and that's how it works? How are they formed?

Marty Walsh: You pay monthly dues, and the monthly dues pay for—at least in the building trades, for the most part, you pay monthly dues. That money supports the local union, and then you pay hourly dues, which is like, you know, anywhere from like $0.10 an hour to probably not much more than that, ten or $0.15 an hour. And that money creates an opportunity for the union to get stronger—the international training, benefits, things like that, helps you put plans together. So you're really investing in the future of your protection or your advancement in your career, you know. People view unions as bad, and they're not bad to represent people. I think that, you know, organized labor, I think, in the 21st century, needs to think a little more about how to be different, representing members and moving forward. Because, you know, the days of sweatshops and labor laws and things like that, they still pop up in different places, and you used to defend that, but you still need the collective bargaining to support workers moving forward.

Dan Koh: And so, we’ve obviously seen, like, Starbucks and other workers unionize. They have to take their case to the National Labor Relations Board. Is that right?

Marty Walsh: Yeah, they go to the NLRB. And you know, the sad thing about the NLRB is that, you know, it's supposed to be an independent body, but unfortunately, depending on the administration, one administration supported it. Like, the Biden administration supported it, but it was severely underfunded as labor secretary. I was able to fight to get some additional money there. And then what I'm seeing now is they want its complete annihilation. Labor workers need a place, whether union or not, to be able to bring their case for wrongful termination, things like that. You know, not every corporation’s like that, and you don't need the NLRB for a lot of corporations because they treat their employees fairly. But some corporations—and we saw it when we were at DOL—we saw meatpacking plants in the Midwest that were using child, you know, undocumented immigrants cleaning slaughterhouse floors. I mean, you need to have support to support those workers.

Dan Koh: So, you run for state rep, you win, you're there for 16 years, get elected mayor of Boston, become secretary of labor. Throughout that entire time, you were going to AA. You went back to college, got your degree at BC. So, can you tell us a little bit about what that—what that outlet, so to speak, maybe that's the wrong word, was for you? And you obviously should not talk about what's in the meetings, but how it works?

Marty Walsh: Alcoholics Anonymous is an anonymous program. But what it does, it's a group of people that have the same issues, in some cases struggling with the same issue. And what you want to do when you get sober is give it away. And what that means is you support somebody else who's struggling. And you know, you hear people tell a story about where they came in their journey, and they might be talking to me sitting in the crowd, and I go, oh my God, that was me. And you know, you're letting people know that this group of people can help you overcome a challenge that you might not think in your brain that you'll overcome. And you know, when I say it's about giving it away, it's about working, sitting with somebody who is new in recovery, and talking to them about what you went through. And ultimately, what it has—it's ironic, it's kind of funny—you're giving it away, but you're getting more back because you're helping somebody, and you're helping somebody that is struggling with the disease of alcohol or drugs. And you went through a multi-step program as part of your—

Dan Koh: Yeah, you—

Marty Walsh: I went to the counseling, I did all the stuff you're supposed to do. And then, when you're there, you know, meetings for me today, it's about, it's really about just giving me a sense of peace. You know, I thank God I don't have a desire to drink. And this battle with alcoholism is every day because you just don't know when there's an opportunity or when there's a thought that might come into my head that I think, well, now I'm, you know, I have a bunch of years being sober, I can drink now. And some people, I've heard people talk about that—they've been sober 20 years, they go, well, pick up, and eventually it picks right up where it left off, meaning the disaster before they went to AA. And you know, I hopefully I'll never get to that point.

Dan Koh: And so, when you were elected mayor, you had tremendous union support. There were a lot of skeptics in the business community who wondered whether a union guy who didn't get his college degree until he was 42 was going to be able to manage a $3 billion budget, 18,000 employees. And you know, people don't realize this, but in the daytime, the population of Boston doubles, and the metro region is something like 4 million people. What was it like for you when people were stereotyping you as like a dumb union guy? And then, how did you bridge that divide? Because you were reelected with a 30% margin, and it was very clear from the business community afterwards that you had quelled that notion that unions are bad for business, because you were kind of someone who bridged that divide.

Marty Walsh: Yeah, you know, when I was running for mayor, you know, there was a lot of op-eds in the Globe and the Herald that still pounded me every day, saying, you know, reporters that you're not going to do this, you can't do that, it’s too labor. And you know, we had a conversation one day in the campaign about it, and like, how are we going to deal with this? And basically, I said, we're going to wear this as a badge of honor, and we're going to go out there and prove them wrong. Ironically, in 2017, when I ran for reelection, the Globe gave me this glowing op-ed, how they should support me again because of all the great things I've done. The business community, meanwhile, there's no acknowledgment of what they did to me for years before that and pounding me. You know, I think that it's really, when you think about this, you can do both. I mean, I've been able to prove as a mayor and as labor secretary of the United States that it's okay, and you should work with both sides. And you know, when I was the mayor of Boston, I spent a lot of time working with the business community to really think about the growth of the city of Boston. And if Boston businesses are growing, that means organized labor can be growing as well. And if there were disputes that were happening between the company—it happened a couple of times with hospitals—I’d intervene and just not force the sides to resolve it, but explain to them, just keep the communication going, you'll get it resolved. And the same thing on the national level—I mean, we did with the Kellogg strike. You know, I got criticized by some Republicans for going to the strike, but we can talk a little bit more about that strike.

Dan Koh: Yeah, there was a strike with the Kellogg Food Brands, and I was invited to the picket line by the workers.

Marty Walsh: So we went to the picket line to talk to the workers, and we had reached out to the company, and my office reached out to the company, and we sat with them. When we sat with them, we talked to them for a little bit about their strike and what they were going on. And they really didn't hate the company—they were just disappointed by the lack of proposals that they were looking at. And you know, after we left that, I got criticized by some members of Congress. They wanted to call a hearing on it. Meanwhile, I think like two weeks later, the strike was resolved, and the CEO of Kellogg called me to thank me for coming out because it unlocked the wedge. And that's a perfect example of politics playing in the case where you have a legit worker's dispute between workers and management, where you want to get it resolved for the good of the workers, the management, the company, and the public. And then you have members of Congress that want to use it as an opportunity to kind of hold a hearing and blast away at me or whoever it is, when they don't have the reality of what the situation is on the ground, when they should be, as members of Congress, trying to resolve the issue and not pointing fingers.

Dan Koh: Well, you touched on an interesting point because, you know, I want to get to the Trump administration now. There is a presentation of the Trump administration as a pro-worker administration. I think you and I both know that there are serious issues with that characterization, but it's very clear that at least at the rank-and-file level, a lot of union members are pro-Trump and have, and the president has kind of ridden that wave to promote that. What's your opinion of the worker policy or perspectives of the Trump administration?

Marty Walsh: I mean, they've gone after, obviously, the Department of Labor, some areas in the Department of Labor. And I think that, you know, I think the message out of Washington right now is very confusing and very mixed. I think that when you're talking about tariffs, and you're talking about all these things that this administration is doing, it counters growth of the economy. And I think that, you know, putting tariffs on Canada and European countries—it might sound good on the surface, but it necessarily isn't good for us as an economy, in this, you know, this fear of recession coming in. If we're going to go into a recession, we'd only be driven into the recession, and we have no idea when we get out of the recession. So I think, I think the policies in this might sound like a criticism, but I think that if you're going to put tariffs on, you should have policies in place for how are you going to keep the economy moving forward. And it doesn't seem that's the case we're doing today. We're kind of taking every day we wake up to a new kind of, you know, shiny object over here to go after. And I think that, you know, when you think about pro-worker, you know, bringing back manufacturing jobs to the United States is great. Under, you know, you look at the last 30 years, we were losing manufacturing jobs. In the Biden administration, even though he's not going to get credit for it, he actually brought manufacturing jobs back to America. The CHIPS bill actually was created to create chips—the chips that are in our phones and computers. You know, 90% of those chips, we're dependent on Taiwan and other places in the world to buy those chips. After the CHIPS bill goes through, and we build these factories, I believe it almost flips the other way, when 90% of chips we've built in America will be exported into other countries. Like, those are the things we should be talking about as far as building manufacturing jobs, not being critical. Whether you like electric vehicles or not, they're here to stay. You and I have had conversations about autonomous vehicles and when are we going to get there when we were in the mayor's office. You know, we have an opportunity here with electric vehicles to create an industry and own the industry. You know, Tesla builds a lot of cars here, but they also build cars all over the world. You know, Ford and GM, they build their cars here, their electric vehicles. No one's criticizing Tesla about its all-electric vehicles. No one's criticizing them, but we're criticizing the industry. There's just something not right here. So I think, to answer your initial question, I just think that as far as worker policy moving forward, I don't think the way that we're seeing things rolled out today is the right way to move forward on worker policy.

Dan Koh: What do you think of Elon’s comments on unions? Obviously, he's been critical in the past, and you've met, you know—

Marty Walsh: Yeah, we sat where we sat with them. We met for 2 hours, roughly, and we went around, and you know, he was very—he wasn't that talkative that day about unions. You know, obviously, he just, I think he says what comes to his mind. And I think that can be dangerous. Sometimes you have to think through what's going on. I mean, it's like you said, there's no secret—many union members voted for President Trump, and they believed in, whether it's social issues or whatever reason, they voted for them. They believed in them. And you have people like Elon Musk, who's not elected, not really technically appointed, who is in the free market. He's a capitalist, he goes out there, he does this thing, and now he's telling us how we should—his opinion on unions. And I think people are taking it as that's President Trump's opinion. Well, I heard President Trump talk when he met with the Teamsters afterwards that he was open to talking to organized labor. I heard him say that—he said it on TV, you know. So that counters what the president feels, or he has not always been real clear on exactly what the feeling is there.

Dan Koh: You talked about the president's message. Why do you think Democrats continue to seemingly continue to be losing the kind of people that you knew in construction?

Marty Walsh: Well, first of all, you know, the message—I mean, it's part of the message. I think that, you know, everyone’s trying to figure out how to respond to this administration today. But I don't think we learned from the first four years of the Trump administration how to respond to it. And I don't think, you know, President Biden was a bridge that people thought was going to be a bridge to the future—was a bridge to another Trump administration. And I think that, I think that, you know, Democrats need to start thinking about, as far as Democratic leadership, you want to see leadership. Every member of Congress and every member of the Senate needs to start realizing, go back to your first race. And when you were trying to win the race, you were the most connected to the average person at that particular moment in time. And then you get elected to Congress, whether it's the Senate or the House—and it goes for mayors or whatever elected officials you want—and a lot of times, people get separated from that first race, and you kind of, you kind of believe in the policy in the system that's put in place. And you believe in what you're doing is right. I mean, they're holding hearings and beating people up in hearings. They should be out in the community talking to people, not in town halls. They should be out, like, in coffee shops and other places, talking to people. And I think that, you know, mayors—mayors have to do that. I mean, you have to do this in here. I mean, I’m a little sensitive in defending mayors, but you know, mayors go out there in coffee shops, they go to ribbon cuttings, they're talking to people all day long, you know. Congress members, they're always in Washington, or they're flying wherever they're going, which is fine, I'm not discrediting them, but they hold a hearing. And I think the hearing is the big important thing in their life. No one's watching it, first of all, and it's always about beating up the other side. There are some members, obviously, that work bipartisan, but even the bipartisan stuff, everyone's afraid of the left or the right, because if you go bipartisan, you are labeled as you're not a Democrat. I mean, you and I saw this when I first sat at the Department of Labor—I think some of the folks that we worked with thought I was a Republican. And you know, when I left, they were like, oh my God, we did, we accomplished so much. And it's like, why not talk to the other side? And so I think that, I think Democrats—I think it's about messaging, number one, but it's also talking about issues that people care about. Right now, people are concerned about the price of food, they're concerned about their small savings, they're concerned about paying their rent, paying their mortgage, raising their family. That's what they're concerned about. You know, they're not concerned about some of the big-picture issue items that we've been talking about for the last four years, like student loan debt—great, it’s a big issue, I guess. But you know, most people aren't thinking about that because the kids can't afford to go to college, so they can't do that. So I think that we have to think about what are our messaging points, and why, if we truly are a party for anybody, we should be able to represent the conservative Democrat or the conservative Republican if they want to follow a candidate. But we don't create that space for them.

Dan Koh: So if you're a member of Congress, or you know, at any level, and you're in the communities, what would you be saying, or what would you be listening for?

Marty Walsh: I'd be listening to what people have to say. I mean, I think, you know, I experienced it when I was down in D.C.—members of Congress telling me how to run the department. I’m like, okay, but you're wrong. And you know, I would challenge some people. I think we're at a point in time where we need to listen to people. I think that, you know, we have this system of government that we've had pretty much since the inception—we’re pretty much a two-party system. At the end of the day, it's about Democrat, Republican, who's in the final, how do you win? But when you look at the people that have registered to vote, the majority of the country is independent. So they don't have a side, they don't pick a side. You know, when I grew up, I grew up in a Democratic union household, and you know, my parents came from Ireland. So let's pick a different family—go back three or four generations of being in America. Democrat, union, Democrat, union, it got passed down through the generations. That's not the case today, it's not. So I think that, I think we have to really have a real serious conversation about what people are concerned about, and then focus on those issues. But you still have to focus as a Democrat—you mean, you know, in office, you still have to worry about people's rights. You’ve got to worry about the LGBTQ community, you’ve got to worry about the transgender community, you’ve got to worry about the immigrant community. But don't get caught up when you talk about the immigrant community—don't get caught up in protecting criminals, because people are frustrated with it.

Dan Koh: Well, tell us about your opinion on all the issues around migrants.

Marty Walsh: Well, I think that, you know, it comes from two different standpoints. You know, I think that when you think about immigrants and what the Trump administration is doing, they're rounding up people that were, or perceived to be, or convicted—not convicted, but arrested—of criminal acts. I understand what they're doing. And you know, the reason why there was so much fast movement is because the justice system identified—they know who these people are as they're picking them up and throwing them out, which is their purview. But the issue is that there are people here in this country that came here through asylum or whatever reason that are hardworking people. So, on the sense of the criminal activity, I, you know, I don't think we should have criminals in the United States of America that are here undocumented, wreaking havoc and causing danger for Americans or other immigrants. They shouldn't be here—we don't need that. We don't need that in a country. We should—we don't have to, we shouldn't have to give up our criminal justice system, taking care of people that are causing crime and havoc and not potentially going the right track. On the other side, economically—and I'm surprised with this, you know, I spoke with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce about this—there's a need in America for workers. We have more jobs open in America, all throughout America, in different industries, than we have people that have green cards or citizenship that live in this country that can do those jobs. So our economy needs workers as we grow different areas.

Dan Koh: So how do we change the narrative then? Because I think there's a narrative out there that immigration—not that it’s completely bad, but a lot of that talk around immigration, people think immigration, or they think migrant—well, it’s kind of illegal immigrant—that’s a perfect example of what's happening here.

Marty Walsh: So, you know, this could be flipped. So I'll use this example today, and then we can get another example in a minute. In this particular issue, most Republicans are all like, yeah, get rid of the undocumented. And they’re using it as a ploy to get other Republicans elected and not really understanding the issue of the issue. Now, Democrats have the same thing with another issue—if they were in control, they’d want to do the same thing. And I think that there's so much fear there that no one wants to come up with a resolution. There was a resolution—there was a bill passed in the Senate last year, a bipartisan bill. Democrats, Republicans got together—you didn't hear about it in the newspaper, they weren't beating each other up. It passed the Senate, and it got stopped in the House because Johnson, the speaker, stopped it because he had a presidential election moving forward. And the business community was silent on it, and they should have been vocal on it, saying—and quite honestly, labor should have been vocal on it as well, saying that we need to pass this legislation. And now that set us back. Now, I don't think we can, in this Congress—I don't think they can pass a bill like that because it's not necessarily about the fundamental issue in front of them. It's about winning this to score points on social media, on the talk shows, or whatever it is. That's what it's all about. And again, it goes back to, at the end of the day, I think the people are going to be damaged by all of this rhetoric going on in Washington—the elected official himself.

Dan Koh: So how much do you think personality is part of some of the way that people are perceiving elected officials these days? You're known for your no-nonsense—I won't say the word, but you've been known to use very colorful language that is kind of endemic to Boston that both of us use. How do you think about personality as part of all of this, and the kind of rhetoric or talk that tends to come—I would argue a lot from the Democratic Party—that may not be as real, or how real people talk?

Marty Walsh: Well, first of all, you're elected to represent people, okay? You know, you're not necessarily elected to represent a point of view. And you have a point of view, and you have a discussion, you have a vote on it. So you can vote the way you want, but you have to really be willing to be able to sit down and talk to everybody about a particular issue. Now, they're going to get heated and hot. And you know, I learned this a long time ago when I was in any role—let’s say state rep—when somebody comes up to me to talk about an issue, it's the most important issue in that person's life because they get the elected official, they're able to talk about it. They have a vote, they put you in, they vote you out, and they want to talk about it. As elected officials, you might realize, well, this issue is not as big as they're making out to be. But for that particular person, it is. So I think that's why it's important to understand the different perspectives but also explain to people. When I was a state rep, on two occasions—one was marriage equality, and the other was raising taxes—I went around to the civic associations, and I knew marriage equality in my district at the time in 2005 wasn't necessarily top of mind.

Dan Koh: Well, let me interrupt you there before you keep going, because I think, you know, there's a lot of talk about woke culture and anti-woke, and those culture wars being a factor. Now, you tell me, but I would argue the marriage equality debate was the woke of the era, right? I mean, meaning that people—were people uncomfortable with the cultural implications in the same way that they were, but they didn't understand it?

Marty Walsh: You know, I think the woke stuff, when you talk about—we'll go back to that, come back to marriage equality second—I think it's when people make up a decision to do something, whether it's the use of pronouns or whatever it might be, and all of a sudden, the whole world has to do it. And if you don't do it, you're wrong—that's where the problem comes into play. If somebody doesn't want to describe he/him, they shouldn't have to. And if somebody wants to, they should be able to. And there should be no criticism of the people on that, because what's happened is that they've turned pronouns into this culture war, which is not really fair. And I don't even know where it came from, but it's like, if you don't use it, you're terrible, and if you use it, you're an embarrassment, and it comes out. I think marriage equality, to come back to that—Massachusetts, for me, just to finish my point—I explained, I went to civic association meetings, I went to senior buildings, I was talking to people on the street about why I decided to vote, why I was supporting the way I wanted, where I was voting, because the way I thought was the right way.

Dan Koh: And how did you come to that conclusion yourself, personally? Because it wasn't that—

Marty Walsh: Oh, I mean, in ‘97, I get elected to the House. There was a bill—domestic partner benefits—that didn't go anywhere. 2001, I believe there was a civil union bill, didn't go anywhere. None of these bills were moving. It was just domestic partner benefits, allowing people who work for state agencies of government and private side that they could put their significant other on a health insurance policy. It was pretty simple when you think about it now—it's ridiculous we needed to do it. But then the Supreme Court of Massachusetts came down—there was a case brought to the Supreme Court of Massachusetts, and they ruled that marriage, you know, the definition of marriage is not a man or woman. And then it was that marriage—gay marriage is allowed, marriage equality is love. And what we had to do in the legislature was preserve that in the Constitution. And in 2004, I would say my district, if I pulled it, probably was—I don't know, 60/40 maybe against it, not fully understanding the implications, because it was kind of like, oh my God, this is the first place in the world, Massachusetts, where marriage equality came up. And you know, I got a call the day that the Supreme Court ruled it—Liz Meyer, dear friend of mine from Jamaica Plain, a state rep, called me up, and she, you know, kiddingly but seriously said, I need a white Irish Catholic straight guy to help us with this fight. And I was, you know, I looked at it, and I very quickly realized that this is, this is potentially the civil rights issue of my time that I have an opportunity to be part of on the right side. And that's why there was no hesitation. And then I went out and talked to the community and just listened to them on their concerns and talked about it. And you know, I had an opponent the next election who ran against me for this marriage equality, just on that, among many issues. And I got 93% of the vote. So I mean, I guess the right thing was done there. And then on taxes, we had terrible times in the legislature in 2000 to 2003, fiscally. And you know, I voted for a tax package to keep the state afloat, and some of it expired—it was a package, it was put together that changed some policies, but some of it, like, we hit something, economic triggers, the tax would go back down. So it was the right way to do the tax bill. And I went around telling people what we were going to do about that bill. And you know, I think it's like, people want to understand what their elected officials are doing. And that was, you know, I represented 34 out of 37,000 people as a state rep, so you could pretty much do it pretty easily. But when I was mayor of Boston, I represented 700,000 people, so I could do the same thing. So it is about creating access and listening to people.

Dan Koh: So to go back to a Democrat-Republican thing, I think the Democrats—I think that, you know, they're trying to figure out how to respond to this administration currently in the White House. What they should be thinking about, in my opinion, is not just that, but thinking about how do you win back voters that we've lost, that traditionally have voted for Democratic candidates?

Marty Walsh: And I think, when it comes to organized labor, you know, people always are quick to point out that, you know, 57% of labor union members are voting for Trump, or whatever it is. And it's not that high, but let's say it is for this conversation. Well, union members—take away the union for a minute—that's the public. So they are no different than the average person next door that might not be part of a union. And everyone's kind of blames the unions, but I think there's an opportunity for better messaging there. And I think, you know, granted, listen, the social issues are important—a lot of people are important to me. But I think that if I believe in something—if marriage equality in 2004, I believed in marriage equality, and I still do today—if somebody opposed, didn't agree with me on that, that doesn't mean I shut them off completely. Because there'll be another issue another day that I can win them back. And it showed in my election that year—93% of the people who went out to vote voted for me.

Dan Koh: So you talked a little bit about marriage equality and kind of the cultural conversation that we've been having recently. Obviously, diversity, equity, inclusion is under fire—a lot of conversation and controversy. As a white Irish straight guy, as you alluded to, you've been very outspoken for a very long time about the value of diversity. When you were first elected mayor of Boston, you pledged that half of your cabinet were people of color—I was one of them. I'm just curious about your perspective on that, because I think you, as a straight white Irish guy, making these statements and being steadfast is quite striking for people.

Marty Walsh: You know, again, go back to the culture of Washington today—DEI has become a lightning rod of an issue. And it’s a lightning rod down there, and it's actually not as lightning as I thought it would be, quite honestly. But it's a lightning rod down there as far as the way people are responding and not pushing back. When I became mayor of Boston, I ran for mayor of Boston—the neighborhoods are diverse. You have certain parts of Boston that are majority African-American, you have parts of Boston that are Haitian, you know, parts of Boston that are Irish—white Irish or American—or Italian or Polish or whatever it might be, all of Asian, different ethnic groups in all there. And when you're running for mayor of Boston, you’re campaigning in all those areas. And it only makes sense when you get elected to office that your office reflects the community that you are representing. And I think, when it comes to companies that have DEI policies that got rid of them—well, your clients are people in those same communities that I represent as mayor. So why wouldn't you want people in your administration that reflect the people that you service, or whatever it might be? And I think that, you know, tying diversity—I see right now, universities and colleges and law firms going after them for these policies and not giving them funding. Well, that's insane, because, you know, these institutions are, in most cases, the biggest employer in a community. They employ lots of different people. The grants that they fund them with are doing life-saving work over time. And it's just not—it's dangerous, quite honestly, what's potentially happening with nature funding and stuff like that over these policies and not eliminating policies and tying all that together—that's where the confusion comes into play for me.

Dan Koh: What would you do if you were a university president and you had something like this? You're dealing—

Marty Walsh: I mean, I think my first instinct, I want to fight back on it. And my second instinct is, wait a second, I get $50 million in funding—if I fight back, I'm going to lose my money. That's what it looks like. So I think they're in a very awkward, bad place right now on how to respond. And I think, again, the decisions that are being made and not looking at the repercussions of those decisions—you know, some of the days, I think it was the first, you know, the administration did something on the first day, but they also pulled out of the World Health Forum. And I was like, oh, it was—I think they deported some worker, they, they kind of kid who was part of MS-13 or something, I think that was two or three, and they were deporting and made a big stink about it, which is great, good for them. The other side is, we’re part of the World Health Forum—which potential is the greater risk? The lost lives, pulling out of World Health, from the NIH funding, pulling the cancer treatment funding? The other day, they were going after money at the Pentagon for Moonshot, President Biden's initiative, because his son died of cancer. Is that petty? Come on, like, seriously. But the damage you're doing—as a cancer survivor, when I had cancer, I had Burkitt lymphoma at the age of seven. In 1974, the survival rate was like 30%. Today, the survival rate’s like 90%.

Dan Koh: Do you remember when you were dealing—do you remember what you were feeling?

Marty Walsh: Yeah, I—you know, the survival rates—no, no, I didn't know that. So you're kidding—you're sick, and you hope you feel better. I mean, you're not thinking about death or what's going to happen. And unfortunately, your parents and your family go through it, but you could tell they were worried, you could tell. But again, it was just different. Like, I was trying to be home, you know, my father would come in—he would be working a lot of times nights to come and see me in the daytime, mother come and see me. And you know, my brother's a baby at the time, you know, he's three, four years old when he went through that. So it was hard on him too, I think, probably because he was so young and being bounced around. But you don't think about it. But you know, the research, the research that's been done is amazing. I had a chance a couple of weeks ago to go back over it—part of my job with the National Hockey League Players Association and the National Hockey League, we partner with the V Foundation to do cancer research, and we were able to give a $600,000 grant to Boston Children's Hospital. And it was nice to be there because, like, I remember being a kid in there, and like, that $600,000 grant that's going there, we know is going to research. And if these doctors and scientists have to worry about NIH funding getting cut, well, that's going to end life work, and the danger for that—and you're not recovering from that overnight. It's not like it's only a change in tax policy that can be changed back in four years. Now, this is something that you lose that time, and you might have somebody 70 years old working on a cure for something, and all of a sudden, now, this four-year period, they lose the funding—well, they might not be in the business four years from now. They might have passed away, they might, you know, retire, like this. But you just don't know what we're going to miss out on. So I get worried about that.

Dan Koh: So you alluded to this, but you're now executive director of the NHL Players Union. And there's been a lot of conversation about sports fans and sports and politics and how it all jives together. How do you think about this as a Democrat, as a vocal Democrat, and a population of hockey fans that, I'm sure there are some, and many Democrats, but there are people all across the aisle? How do you feel the role of politics in sports is?

Marty Walsh: It's historically, politics in sports—as far as organizations like ours and the leagues, we don't generally, they don't get involved in politics, meaning you leave it up to the individuals, and within the players or the owners of teams or whatever, they get involved in stuff. You have owners of the teams that supported Republicans, you have owners of teams that supported Democrats, you have some players that supported, you know, in America, Democrats, Republicans. In Canada, you know, they support different party systems out there, or they come from different international countries, they support different things. So you don't really mix the politics into it. You know, some players, like Tom Brady and Wayne Gretzky, have kind of veered into this lane at certain points. You know, I think it's unfortunate that Wayne Gretzky, you know, the greatest hockey player of all time, is being criticized. He gave his opinion on Trump. You know, if he had asked me for my advice, and you know, coming from me, it's kind of like, oh, I'd be like, just stay out of it. But he's a person, he should have a right to say what he wants to say. And I think that, you know, they're held up on a different pedestal. So most players, most players kind of just stay out of politics—they just don't, it's not worth it. And they have their opinion privately, we'll talk about it. But it's, you know, sports, in a lot of ways, is entertainment. So people go to sports to get away from the talking heads, people go to sports to get away from the noise around the world. They want to go and they want to watch their sport—whatever sport it is, any sport doesn't matter. And they don't want to get caught up in the politics. And I think that that's, in some ways, you know, you can't tell a player not to get involved in this stuff because it's their personal right to do it. But sometimes, like, people are going to watch them to get away from it.

Dan Koh: So you talked a little bit about Republicans and sports and the pathway forward. I want to touch now on, you know, we have midterms coming up in 2026, we also have the presidential elections—kind of hard to believe, with people already talking about it. If you were advising a presidential candidate, what kind of vision would you present to him or her about how they should be thinking about the way they talk about all of the things that you've discussed today?

Marty Walsh: Well, it's going to be funny because I'm going to talk to both parties here, because I think both parties are going to do the same thing. I think the Republicans are, at least from where I'm sitting, trying to figure out who they are in the future. And the Democrats are trying to figure out, how do we regain what we've lost, and how do we—who we are in the future. And I think both parties are thinking the same way. And I think that, you know, I think that civility is going to have to be part of this conversation. I think that, whether you're in the heat of the battles or you're fighting the other side, obviously, so you have that battle, but then how do you bring people together after that? And I think that that's something that—so I think the parties, the two parties, Democratic side, Republican side—what are the issues that are going to be important to us moving into the 21st century? I think I'd be paying attention to the economy, I'd be paying attention to the workplace, I'd be paying attention to what is the next boom in our country, I'd be paying attention to our infrastructure, I'd be paying attention to, can we stay on a competitive global scale with these other countries? You know, America is the best country in the world, there's no question about it. In order for us to continue to be the best country in the world, it's not to feed ourselves from within. And I think that that's a lot of what's happening right now. And I think that, you know, when I ran for mayor of Boston, my platform had a bunch of different things I wanted to talk about, but it was, how do we continue to grow economically? When I got elected, you and I had these conversations—how do we keep college students that go to college in Boston in Boston, and not go to New York and Chicago and L.A. and Silicon Valley? And what did we do? We went out and recruited companies coming to the city of Boston. So we thought about the future of Boston. And I think the elected officials, to answer the question—it's not that simple—but if you're going to run for president, you’ve got to think about what type of America should we be going into the next phase of the next quarter, if you will, the 21st century. And I don't think the first 25 years—I don't necessarily think we just kind of ran off of what happened in the previous 20th century. I think ‘24 is a little different—we have to think about who we are, and I think we have to pay a little more attention to that.

Dan Koh: And for unions, you know, unfortunately, we've seen there was a little bit of an uptick while you were labor secretary and under President Biden, but the longer-term trend of union participation is not a good one. What advice do you give for union members and the future of unions?

Marty Walsh: I think we have to—you have to go out and explain what a union is. I think that there has to be education on what a union is and who they represent. I mean, when the Starbucks workers went to organize, they went to organize because they were frustrated in not being listened to, and they felt that they were being unfairly treated, and their wages weren't theirs. When somebody organizes a company, that's a message to the owner that you have a problem. So don't just simply say, well, they're just a pain. You had the whole industry of Starbucks wanting to organize—you have a cultural issue there. And if you had a culture issue with customers coming in, you would address that issue—you would fix your product, you would change whatever it is, you’d change the recipe, you might put new paint on the wall, whatever it might be. So if workers are frustrated, you should pay attention to what they have to say. Doctors around the country are organizing right now—well, people are saying they’re disruptive. They're not disruptive—they're disappointed, or they're concerned about the industry, and they're exhausted. And so let's figure out why they're organizing and what the issue is. Because if patients start going to the hospital, you would deal with the issue. I remember talking to—I, when I was in Davos at the World Economic Forum when I was the labor secretary, and there's a large worldwide corporation, I sat with the head of the worldwide corporation, and he had asked me, how do I deal with unions? And so, what do you mean? He said, well, how do I have a conversation with unions? So let me ask you a question—do you ever bring the present union in to talk to you? He goes, no, my human resource person does. I said to him, do you talk to your customers? He goes, yes. I said, you talk to your suppliers? Yes. Do you talk to your vendors? Yes. Then why wouldn't you talk to the workers? And he kind of said, oh—like it never dawned on him for him to pick up the phone and call. And so I think a lot of that—it goes back to what we talked about early in this conversation about communication. So it is about having these dialogues. So I think organized labor needs to do—I think a couple of things. I think, number one, educate what a union is—I don't think people fully understand what a union is. And I think, before you start telling, suggesting to workers how they vote, you need to give them a reason why you're going to tell them you should vote for X candidate, or we should do this policy, for a reason. Because when you're a union, if you're making a drastic change in policy in the office—again, go back to the corporations—you talk, you talk to the workers, you talk to your clients to change the policy in the unions. If you're going to change something, you talk to the workers. In this particular case, I think a lot of that communication is gone—computer technology, IT, all that social—but that's not talking to the workers. It has to be on the ground, in the job sites.

Dan Koh: So you talked a lot about what we need to do in unions. What is the one message that you may have for a MAGA voter or a disaffected voter in communities all around this country that you would want to talk to listeners and say, this is what you should say to them?

Marty Walsh: I think I would say that elected officials need to be out in the communities, talking to the other side, talking to these voters, and they need to get out of their offices, and they need to start talking to people and listening to what they have to say. Because they've gotten to a point in their life—whether it's MAGA, or whether it's super left, or whatever the definitions are, the disgruntled—and they're not happy. And you need to go out and meet them where they're at, and ask them, talk to them about it. Now, they might yell at you, but that's okay—that's, you get paid to get yelled at, you get paid to take crap from people. That's your job as an elected official—it's not all roses and lovey-dovey. I mean, we face that, but you have to do that. And I think that, you know, people will get disgruntled, and they'll give you a lot of grief, but they'll eventually appreciate the fact that you came and spoke to them and didn’t hang up on them.

Dan Koh: What are your favorite kinds of events where you see people who may not be as politically involved, but you're able to connect with?

Marty Walsh: Oh, you go to any, in any community—you know, if you’re down the South, you go to country fairs; you're in Boston, you go to family fun days, you go to street block parties, depending on where you are in the country. There's something going on everywhere—go someplace where they're not expecting you, and don't stage it. It's not your event—go to the place, because if you put an event together, everyone loves you because it's your event, they come for you. You want to go to places where people aren't expecting you—that's where. Go to a train station—stand at the front when people come home from work, you know, when they're going to work, they're not focused, they're just busy to get to work. Stand at a train station when they come home from work after a tough day, and let them vent to you, so you can understand what their concerns are.

Dan Koh: Marty Walsh, thank you for coming into the People's Cabinet. 

Marty Walsh: Thanks for a great conversation. 

Dan Koh: I'm Dan Koh, and that's it for the People's Cabinet today. Follow us on social media, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and see you on Tuesdays for new episodes. Let's go.