How to Fix a City — Mayor Justin Bibb on What Works

Dan Koh: We live in a time where it feels like nothing's getting done in politics. But the reality is, at the local level, there’s a lot happening. Our next guest is Mayor Justin Bibb of Cleveland, Ohio. He’s also the president of the Democratic Mayors Association, a group of over 30,000 mayors all around the country who are getting things done. Mayor Bibb joins us to talk about actual things we can do to address issues facing every American city—housing, crime, homelessness, and transportation, his opinion on "defund the police," and how Democrats can win states like Ohio again. Let’s swear into the People’s Cabinet, Mayor Justin Bibb. Mayor Justin Bibb, Mayor of Cleveland, President of Democratic Mayors Association, welcome to People’s Cabinet.

Justin Bibb: Thanks for having me.

Dan Koh: You know, Mr. Mayor, we’re at a time of a lot of fear in the markets. People are really cynical about D.C. As a result, people are wondering whether government actually works anywhere. So my first ask for you is to give us a little bit of hope.

Justin Bibb: Yeah, I mean, Dan, as you look at the headlines over the last several weeks, it’s certainly been a chaotic few months of 2025. And it’s been a chaotic few months for America’s mayors all across the country. But I will tell you this—there are glimmers of hope happening in Cleveland and really across the nation, led by mayors who are getting the job done despite the chaos coming from D.C. A really great example: just last week, we did a groundbreaking to break ground on cleaning up an old industrial site in Cleveland’s Collinwood neighborhood, which, at our height as a city, was at the height of the American Industrial Revolution. This brownfield site had been sitting empty for over 30 years. And so, seeing public sector leaders with the private sector talking about new opportunity, new jobs, and new hope coming to that part of Cleveland’s north side shows you that we’re still working to get the job done for our residents, despite the chaos in D.C. And there are countless examples of that happening all across the country right now.

Dan Koh: And can you tell our listeners who may not know what a brownfield site is?

Justin Bibb: Yeah, so, you know, you had these legacy industrial sites that were once hotbeds of industrial economic activity, whether it was around steel or creating new nails or paint—really manufacturing products. Cleveland was a national leader in the manufacturing sector in the early 1900s. We fueled America’s first industrial revolution. So we have a lot of these vacant, dilapidated brownfield sites that have been simply sitting empty for four decades. And for Cleveland to win in this moment, we have to make sure we have shovel-ready greenfield sites to activate, bringing good-paying jobs back to our cities. And it’s a big part of our economic development strategy here in Cleveland right now.

Dan Koh: And I want to get back to Cleveland’s renaissance and the work that you’re doing there. But I’d love for you to take us back about how you got elected, especially as a 34-year-old. Of course, there’s a lot of negativity about politics in general, and I think a lot of talk about the previous generation not willing to give up the reins to the next generation. And so I’m sure it wasn’t easy.

Justin Bibb: You know, my journey to become the second youngest mayor in my city’s history and the youngest Black mayor in my city’s history was a very unlikely journey. I remember sitting at home in my apartment as the pandemic started in March of 2020, and then a few months later, we had the tragic murder of George Floyd, which in many cases was the largest racial reckoning in the nation since the tragic assassination of Dr. King in 1968. And so, as I was looking on the news and I saw these protests all across the country—where Black folks, white folks, Latin folks, Asian folks, folks from all walks of life were coming together to articulate their bold case for change—and as I saw my city be divided in the pandemic with our response, we were divided due to our response around police brutality. In the past, you know, Cleveland has been under two consecutive consent decrees with the Department of Justice for excessive police misconduct. I just saw a groundswell need for change in my city and my hometown.

And so I quit my job in investment banking at KeyBank, our hometown bank, the little money that I had—and you’re Cleveland through and through, right?

Dan Koh: Yeah, Cleveland through and through.

Justin Bibb: So I quit my job, put the little money I saved up into the campaign. And when I announced my campaign, I was probably at -1% in the polls. But we started doing meet-and-greets on Zoom—ten people turned into 20 people, turned into 30 people. We went everywhere across the city—east side, west side, downtown. And we won the primary and then won the general election by about 25 points. And you know, our theme for the campaign was "Cleveland couldn’t wait, Cleveland can’t wait." And I think it spoke to this sense of urgency that we had in the nation right now in terms of whether or not cities like Cleveland could recover coming out of the pandemic. And I think over the last four years, since I’ve been blessed to be mayor of my hometown, I think we’ve charted a comeback story for the nation on what bringing people together looks like, on what a bold vision looks like, and on how a legacy American city like Cleveland can reinvent itself and lead in this moment.

Dan Koh: And what’s your message to candidates who may be thinking about running but concerned about being perceived as too young or not being able to kind of dismantle the old system? And how should America be thinking about electing the next generation?

Justin Bibb: Yeah, I had a lot of folks in Cleveland tell me that I needed to wait my turn, that I didn’t have enough experience. I had people tell me I wasn’t Black enough or that I was too Black to be mayor—I heard it all when I started my upstart campaign in 2021. But in my heart of hearts, I knew what the voters wanted. And the reason why I knew what the voters wanted—and I think this is a great microcosm of what we should be doing in this country right now—is I listened. I listened. You know, Democrats across the country, and really just politicians in general, and our democracy in general—we don’t have a democracy problem in America right now. We have a listening problem in America right now. And because I was a patient candidate and really spent my time meeting people where they were, talking about their challenges, their frustrations, their pain points, but also talking about their dreams, their ambitions, their aspirations, we rooted our campaign in the voice of the people. And I think more elected officials from both sides of the aisle at every level of government—we all must do a better job of listening. And if we do a better job of listening, then I think we’ll do a better job of really perfecting and enhancing this great American experiment that we call our democratic republic right now in the country.

Dan Koh: And I think that’s right. I mean, I remember—I’ve obviously never been a mayor, but I was chief of staff to Mayor Walsh in Boston. And he made me chief of staff when I was 28—wow, I had no idea what I was doing. But similarly, there was just a lot of skepticism about whether I had what it took to do that. And similar to you, I think, and similar to, candidly, Mayor Walsh—who had taken over for a five-term mayor, Mayor Menino, who was very well-regarded—it was all about listening, right? Just reaching out to people, proactively calling people either into the mayor’s office or going out to the communities. And it wasn’t about, "Here’s what I need you to do for me." It’s, "What can I do for you?" I think that’s an incredibly important lesson.

So if you could just talk a little bit about what a mayor does, and in particular, the difference between a strong mayor and a weak mayor system, because I think most people don’t really realize the intricacies of what being a mayor is and the amount of work that you have to do.

Justin Bibb: Yeah, well, we have a strong mayor form of government here in Cleveland. I’m essentially a CEO of a $2.4 billion corporation with over 8,000 employees. And we have some critical assets that we run and manage here at the city of Cleveland—from all of our public safety forces, whether it be fire, police, or EMS, to our water department, to our own locally owned power utility, to our airport. We are running a very complex, highly nimble enterprise. And what I love about my job as mayor—and Dan, I think any mayor across the country will tell you this, whether it’s a strong mayor or a weak mayor, because most residents don’t know the difference and don’t give a damn what the difference is—is I don’t have the luxury, like a member of the legislative branch, to my brothers and sisters in the legislative branch, but I don’t have the luxury of passing the buck to the next legislative session.

You know, the residents of my city want me to get stuff done. They want me to fix the pothole, fix the street, pick up the trash, invest in police to keep our streets safe and secure. They just want to see progress and results. And every day, when I’m at my local grocery store, Heinen’s, in downtown Cleveland, or I’m at the barbershop, or at my church, Olivet Institutional Baptist Church, I’m getting a report card on how I’m doing. "Mayor, you’re doing a good job, thanks for fixing up that pothole on my street." "Mayor, I need you to do more to keep young people off the streets, especially as the summer season comes up, so that our kids and our young babies are safe and secure." Every day, I get a poll or report card on how I’m doing, and it’s that level of accountability that I really love because every day as mayor, I have to wake up with a sense of urgency to deliver results. And so I tell my cabinet, we got to hit as many singles and doubles every day as we can to continue to build the trust and respect for the residents and constituents that we serve every day. And I think if we had more mayors in Congress, more mayors in the White House, I think our country would be a lot better off.

Dan Koh: I think it’s really important for our listeners to understand just how retail, so to speak, your work is. You know, as you say, when you’re always on, people always have requests, and they will text you directly, and they will let you know things that they may need help with. And you know, again, no disrespect to the people down here in D.C., but there is a certain expectation that you need to be accessible and relatable, and that you need to get things done for them. And candidly, like you said, the amount of training that I think is so meaningful at the local level could be a lot of lessons learned here. I remember the default when we first joined the Department of Labor was that people didn’t have voicemails, and that drove Mayor Walsh crazy. I mean, you not getting back to a single person means you might not get reelected.

Justin Bibb: Exactly. He’s a mayor’s mayor, by the way.

Dan Koh: Exactly. Yeah, phenomenal. So anyway, you talk a little bit about the strong mayor system. I think it’s good for our listeners to know that maybe 40 to 50% of mayors are—they are not weak by personality or influence, but just the amount of power that they have to actually enact policy and change things can be a little bit more diminished at the weak mayor level. So I think it’s important for people to know that you are in the strong mayor system and that there’s a difference. But look, as you say, at the end of the day, mayors are mayors, and they are in charge of a lot of things, and people expect the same of them.

And so I just want to talk to you a little bit about some of the things that I think everyone can relate to and are concerned about in today’s society that you are addressing directly in Cleveland. I want to start with crime because you made an allusion to it. And I think there’s a lot of angst out there that is probably propagated as well by social media and drama as well. But people are scared about safety in their communities, and you’ve done a lot of work in Cleveland on tackling that head-on.

Justin Bibb: Yeah, public safety is my number one priority as mayor. Everything we do is dependent upon whether or not our residents, our businesses, our tourists feel safe and secure in our city. And you know, like many big cities across the country through the pandemic, and really coming out of the pandemic, we saw historic rates of violent crime and homicides in Cleveland. We also saw a couple of other headwinds that exacerbated our public safety crisis—because it really was a crisis in Cleveland and really across the country at that time. Number one, an increase in mental health issues and isolation, which fueled a lot of violent crime in Cleveland and respective cities across the country, and really, number two, the proliferation of illegal crime guns flowing into cities like Cleveland across the nation.

But we’ve taken some really bold approaches to turn the tide of public safety in Cleveland. And for me, it’s personal, right? My dad was a cop, and I know firsthand what it’s like to see your pops or your mom wear that badge, have that gun, and you pray to God that they make it home at night. And for many of our brothers and sisters, officers, that has not been the case. You know, before I was mayor, two days before I was sworn in, when I was then mayor-elect, I had to respond to a police officer being killed in our city—Officer Shane Bartek. And in that moment, I realized how important the public safety mandate was going to be for me as mayor. And then in July of 2023, we had a mass shooting in downtown Cleveland—and thank God no one lost their life, but nine people got shot in our central business district.

And so there were a couple of inflection moments for me as a leader where I realized that we had to have a different approach to really address the concerns and the pain and the frustration of folks in my town about our public safety crisis. So number one, we created a brand-new business plan around safety called our RISE Initiative—Raising Investment in Safety for Everyone. And it’s a three-pronged approach. Number one, historic investments in raising police pay. When I took office, police pay was ranked in the bottom third in Ohio; now, in the top third, because over the last three years, we negotiated a historic 34% pay increase for the men and women of our police department. Secondly, we are using technology in a very different way, and we’re doing it in a way that protects the civil liberties of folks in our city. But we’re using more cameras, ShotSpotter, we now have a Crime Gun Intelligence Center—all those things together have allowed us to solve cases faster. Right now in Cleveland, we have a nearly 90% homicide solved rate when the national average is only 60%. We’re getting thousands of illegal crime guns off our streets, and residents and businesses can now integrate their cameras into our 24/7 real-time crime center.

And the last thing I would say that has really helped us turn the tide on public safety is partnerships, partnerships, partnerships. I’m a blue island in a red state here in Ohio, but I work with our Republican governor, Mike DeWine, on really addressing the safety concerns here in Cleveland. We brought in the state highway patrol for traffic enforcement and special violent crime task force reduction details. And because of all those investments, we’ve seen a nearly 45% reduction in homicides since I took office. And we have to keep our foot on the gas and make sure that it’s not just the data points that matter, but the perception—the perception of Cleveland being a safer city. And it’s the one thing I wake up thinking about every single day as mayor.

Dan Koh: Say more about the perception part, right? Because I think social media, and especially Elon Musk’s X, for example, has created an environment where there’s a lot of information out there that may not necessarily be true—videos that show, you know, you could have one incident at a convenience store in Cleveland, right, that would create a perception like it’s everywhere. So I think it’s incredible to see that drop, and I think a lot of people, a lot of mayors, can learn a lot from it. But how do you also win the war of perception, making sure that people feel the difference, not just hear the statistic?

Justin Bibb: Yeah, well, we had to be aggressive in telling the story of what we’re doing and what our targeted, focused interventions were, deploying and executing to keep our streets safe, and be unapologetic and aggressive about telling that story. And number two, we’ve done some novel things to enhance the perception of safety. I’ll give you a couple of examples. One, as any mayor would tell you, Dan, we love stealing ideas from other cities. And so, in cities like D.C., in Miami, they have the police lights on their cruisers on all the time. We’ve done that here in Cleveland, so neighbors and residents and businesses can see police lights on and show, "Hey, we’re watching, we’re around, there’s a big police presence in our neighborhoods."

The other thing that we’ve done is we’ve really addressed some of the issues around the built environment. So what does that mean? Well, instead of having just our officers walk the beat in hotspots across the city to reduce violent crime, now we’re walking the beat with folks in my cabinet—from building and housing to address dilapidated homes, to public health to make sure that restaurants have the right credentials and that they’re safe places for folks to come to, making sure we have Cleveland Public Power out there fixing streetlights to keep certain streets in our hotspots well-lit, public works out there cleaning up illegal dumping sites. If criminals see that government is working, that government is visible—not just the police department—they’re less likely to commit crime. And what’s striking about that is we’re using data to really have this approach. Less than 10% of the entire geography of my city is responsible for over 90% of all violent crime in Cleveland. So we’re focusing resources where it matters, and we’re getting the results because of this focused approach.

Dan Koh: And talk a little bit more about building the coalition, because I mean, you made a reference to George Floyd and the demonstrations that happened afterwards, and in particular, the lack of trust there with law enforcement in general, a lot of calls for defunding the police. In your approach, how do you bring everyone together for a common goal?

Justin Bibb: Well, "defund the police" was the worst slogan ever invented in American politics. And it’s unfortunate that members of our party got distracted by this idea that we should be defunding the police. When you think about what was happening in 2020, obviously the tragic murder of our brother George Floyd was a galvanizing moment and a wake-up call in America to take police accountability seriously. But at the same time, we can also say we’re going to take police accountability seriously but also invest in thoughtful, good, constitutionally appropriate policing. And cities like Cleveland across the nation—and most folks, especially in this political and toxic media environment, they try to force you to pick a side—either you’re anti-police or pro-police. That doesn’t solve anyone’s problem.

I don’t care what party you are or what race you are or where you live in this country—whether it’s a rural town or big city—you want several fundamental things when it comes to law enforcement. When you call 911, you want somebody to respond to your call that’s compassionate. Number two, you want a police response that shows up on time. And thirdly, when that officer shows up to your door or your business, they want them to respect their constitutional rights as a hardworking, taxpaying citizen of this country. To me, that’s not partisan—it’s a basic, fundamental part of the social contract in this country. And I think if we focused our conversations on safety with that frame, we would be a lot better off, not just as a party, but as a country, because in my opinion, public safety and police accountability are two sides of the same coin. We got to do both. And my late father would also agree with that—he understood, "Hey, I got to show up and respect folks, but I got to be aggressive too at the same time." And a majority of Democratic mayors and America’s mayors share that same sentiment and those same values as well.

Dan Koh: So also on the public safety front—and again, this is another aspect of city life that has been propagated and used in different ways on social media—is the homelessness issue, right? We see a lot of people—and I don’t think this is an unfair characterization—dehumanizing people experiencing homelessness, you know, again, taking one case example and trying to extrapolate that as some systemic problem, a lack of Democratic mayor leadership, etc. Talk a little bit about the work that you’ve also done in this area to tackle homelessness in Cleveland.

Justin Bibb: Yeah, this is an area where I think Democrats had to be bolder around and smarter around. Historically, we’ve been really bad at good government, and we’ve allowed our own intellectual curiosity and wanting to try to solve every social policy problem with one policy solution to get in our way. And what we’ve done here in Cleveland to address our homelessness crisis is we’ve gotten government and red tape out of the way. You know, historically in Cleveland, you would have to prove that you’ve been homeless for 6 to 12 months—that doesn’t make any damn sense. If you’re homeless, you’re homeless, and we need to put you in a safe, comfortable home that gives you dignity and hope.

So we have deployed a Housing First approach here in Cleveland, where we are getting our unsheltered brothers and sisters in a home, guaranteeing their rent for 12 months with a good, responsible landlord, and wrapping services around those folks that are unsheltered or living in tents in encampments across our city. And in just nearly six months, we’ve housed nearly 150 residents in our city. We are now on a path to have functional zero homelessness in the city of Cleveland, where we have no encampments and no tents. We still have a long way to go to shelter our sheltered population, even those that are still living in shelters, but in terms of our unsheltered brothers and sisters who are living in encampments, we said enough is enough. There is a compassionate way to do this, where we’re not just ripping up encampments and tents, but we’re giving them a pathway to hope, a pathway to opportunity with some dignity along the way. And this project is showing great, great results here in Cleveland.

Dan Koh: One of the things we experienced in Boston that we struggled with with the homelessness population is that, you know, there’s a lot of mental illness in the population, and some of them, you can provide a lot of services, but they may not necessarily want to be sheltered. How do you deal with that?

Justin Bibb: We got to meet folks where they are. And you know, we certainly do a case-by-case approach in terms of folks who are dealing with mental health issues who may reject housing. And because we have that case-by-case approach with real, thoughtful case management, we are deploying solutions in a way that allows us to have a customized approach for every person that we come in contact with. And so maybe before we put them in a home, we’re putting them in a mental health organization where they’re getting treatment and resources and support, then we transition them into a home. And so, because of this compassionate approach, we’ve seen really great results.

Dan Koh: So you talked a little bit about Housing First. And I think another thing that people think about, not just in cities but everywhere, is the cost of housing. You know, people are always afraid about their rents going up, their property values, and whether the house that they may own is a good long-term investment. Talk a little bit about how you’re tackling the cost of housing in Cleveland as well, because, you know, part of the problem is if you can be somewhat a victim of your own success—if people want to invest in Cleveland, they want to start businesses, that can price out people who have been renting or otherwise in the communities.

Justin Bibb: Yeah, I mean, we’re seeing a national housing crisis here in Cleveland, and it’s a crisis across the country. I believe we lead the nation here in Cleveland in terms of rental appreciation—prices are skyrocketing for our residents because the demand is not meeting the supply in terms of good quality, affordable, and workforce housing. So we’ve done a couple of things to really turn the tide. One, we partnered with my former employer, KeyBank, and a national nonprofit called LISC to create a nearly $100 million housing investment fund. And the goal is to bring online 3,000 more units of affordable housing over the next several years.

Secondly, we are also looking at how we build faster here in Cleveland—high-quality homes and products faster in our city, in our neighborhoods. So we’re in the process of attracting a national modular housing developer and company to Cleveland, where we can bring jobs back to the urban core that has not been invested in in a long time, but also guarantee demand for residents of good quality, affordable home products in our neighborhoods. And so we’re being as novel as we can. And I continue to work with my mayoral colleagues across the country to encourage Congress to ensure that they work with cities and mayors to make sure we have more light tech. We want to accelerate permitting at HUD and at the state and local level—all those things will go a long way for us to address our national housing crisis.

Dan Koh: And what’s your opinion on the conversation around permitting and process? You know, you have Ezra Klein out there with the abundance agenda, talking a lot about how essentially permitting is overly complex. He was in an interview with Jon Stewart where they’re both laughing about the 15 steps for certain federal programs. But there’s a tension there, right? As you know, there are many stakeholders that you need to consult to get to yes, and so there’s a balance between making sure that you’re being thoughtful about process while also not holding things up. So how do we streamline permitting and get more housing built without leaving people behind as part of the process?

Justin Bibb: We can’t process our way to prosperity, right? And so I think it’s important to have a smart process, but not one that gets in the way of results. To be very frank, my residents don’t give a damn about process—they care about seeing new homes being built in their neighborhoods. Now, you’re going to have "not in my backyard" folks wherever you go, and that will always be something we have to address to make sure their voices are heard. But two or three loud voices should not impact our ability to build things faster, quicker, and more efficiently.

We’re doing that here in Cleveland. I signed an executive order last year to accelerate our permitting efforts in our building and housing department so that developers or residents don’t have to go to four or five departments to get a permit site.

Dan Koh: Can you talk a little bit more about that? Like, specifically, what are some of the things that you think are necessary?

Justin Bibb: Right, so if you’re a large developer, you may have to go to the fire department to get the fire inspection sign-off. Then you have to go to building and housing to make sure that the drawings are fit to code. Then you have to go to the planning department to make sure that it fits the zoning code of that distinct neighborhood. And so, you know, every department has a different meeting schedule with different staffing, different capacity, so it could take months and months and months to maybe get one sign-off on one permit. That has to change.

And so one thing we’re doing is that we’re launching an electronic portal where you can track your permit like a FedEx package. You can upload your drawings online so that government is actually moving at the speed of business. Now, of course, we want to have the right guardrails and regulatory framework in place so that we are not encouraging erratic development—absolutely. Any good government or any good business wants to have the right guardrails in place, but we can’t let process, or the perfect, rather, be the enemy of the good. And so we’re trying to build things faster with more agile systems in our regulatory apparatus to make sure that city hall here in Cleveland is moving at the speed of business.

Dan Koh: So one other aspect of city life that involves a lot of strong opinions and stakeholders that I want to make sure I touch on is transportation, in particular, the debate around bike lanes. There are very strong opinions in every single city about this. There are people who are very much in favor of them and think that it streamlines transportation, reduces traffic. There are others who are absolutely infuriated about every aspect of a bike lane, whether it be taking away parking spots or just the general approach to them. So can you talk a little bit about your initiatives around this, how you get people to yes, and what your hot take ultimately is on bike lanes?

Justin Bibb: I don’t think there’s really a hot take. You know, I think if you look at cities across the world that have won—whether it’s Amsterdam, Copenhagen, London, to New York City—they are cities that invest in multimodal transit options that include bikes, rail, light rail, buses, and protected bike lanes. Multimodal transit is here—it is the future and the present. And for a city like Cleveland, especially a legacy American city with an infrastructure that was built for a million and a half to 2 million people, we’ve had to redesign our infrastructure for the population that we currently have. And so we want to make sure that all of our residents have those options in terms of their transit and mobility—mobility is freedom.

And so we want to make sure we have more protected bike lanes. We’ve changed our zoning to eliminate parking minimums in high-frequency transit corridors. We finally passed a Complete and Green Streets ordinance to encourage more comprehensive mobility options in our developments across the city. And all those things are part of good growth, good infrastructure investment. But also, it’s giving us the ability to attract new talent and attract new investment as the city of the future, and I’m looking forward to seeing our plans come to fruition over the next few years.

Dan Koh: You talk a little bit about your vision for growing Cleveland and the infrastructure. You mentioned that it was for a million-plus people, and it’s a fascinating perspective to think about because there are a lot of cities like yours that, due to globalization or otherwise, have had a lot of issues with industries leaving. Cleveland, obviously, with steel and a number of different sectors that were formerly there. Can you talk a bit about current times? You know, the market is down again this morning, people are really scared about the implications of the president’s tariff policy. I just want to get your opinion on the tariff policy you’re seeing coming from the White House and how people in Cleveland are feeling about it.

Justin Bibb: Yeah, I’m definitely not checking my 401(k) for a while, then. Listen, Cleveland is a prime example of what has happened in America, where if you had a city that was not prepared for the global economic transition—you know, we were once a titan of the global economy in many ways. Cleveland was America’s first Silicon Valley with John D. Rockefeller, who started Standard Oil, and Cleveland got his first billion in Cleveland. He helped fuel America’s first industrial revolution. And we relied on that for a long time, for almost too long. And we as a city didn’t have a grand economic strategy as globalization occurred, and we saw the hollowing out of industrial centers like Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and Chicago to a new world economic order. And many of our peer cities had a plan of transition, and Cleveland didn’t.

But now, with all these new trends of reshoring, and this perceived—and I think hope—that we enter a new era of American determinism, I think this is where Cleveland can hopefully lead the way. I talked earlier in the podcast about the new brownfield site that we’re redeveloping to make it a greenfield site for good jobs. That’s because we’ve deployed $50 million of investment, we’re raising another $50 million, and we’re going to put $100 million of capital to work to greenline neighborhoods that were redlined and turn a thousand acres of vacant brownfield land that were job deserts into places of opportunity and hope. Now we’re making sure that our young people get jobs in advanced manufacturing, aerospace, and defense, because those are the jobs of the future. And so we are making things in America again, and I pray to God, making things in Cleveland again. And I think Cleveland is, in many ways, a story of the larger American story, and I want to make sure Cleveland leads the next chapter of that comeback story.

Dan Koh: So then what’s your opinion on the president’s tariff policy? Because some would argue that tariffs would help incentivize that kind of reshoring that you refer to. And do you have stories of what you’re hearing from businesses within Cleveland about that?

Justin Bibb: Well, listen, I do think that it’s important for America to reset and have the right trade relationships to ensure that America’s interests are protected at home and abroad. I think anybody across the political spectrum would agree with that sentiment. What is not helpful is an erratic tariff policy not guided by common sense. And we’re seeing that happen right now, where we have an erratic trade policy, an erratic tariff policy meant to sow chaos and confusion, and that’s not guided by common sense. And it’s having a devastating impact in cities like Cleveland across the country. For example, we are home to one of the largest exporters of portable heaters here in Cleveland—they may have to lay off hundreds and hundreds of people because of this new tariff policy. And so we can have the right approach as a country to ensure that our global trading partners work with us and support our global economic agenda, but an erratic trade policy made and guided by no common sense is not helping the American people.

Dan Koh: So you talk a little bit about the work done in Cleveland, you’ve talked a little bit about some of the policies of the current administration, and you made a reference to the blue dot in a state that has undergone a lot of transformation politically. So I’m curious about your thoughts on how you talk to your Republican, independent, MAGA people in your communities, and you talked about the bipartisan work that you’re doing at the state level. If you’re a Democrat right now and you’re thinking about Ohio, and you’re thinking about the transformation that is undeniable—you see it in the numbers—how do you cross the aisle as a mayor, and how do you think about getting people excited again about the Democratic Party? Why do you think that we’ve lost so many of these voters?

Justin Bibb: Well, I think the reason why the Democratic Party has lost a lot of voters in Ohio is we have forgotten how to listen to those voters, and we have forgotten how to match our policy vision with real, tangible results that Ohioans can see and feel. And why I love my job as a mayor—I don’t care if I’m talking to a MAGA Republican or a very liberal, progressive Democrat in Cleveland—there are a number of examples of how we’re delivering for people. We’re delivering on safety with historic reductions of violent crime while boosting police pay and boosting investments in violence prevention efforts to make Cleveland a safer, more just city. We’re delivering on creating good jobs by making Cleveland a more attractive place for companies to grow and expand, because government doesn’t create jobs, but what we can do is create better conditions for good-quality job growth. We’re delivering on ensuring we’re protecting our environment—not just talking about greenhouse gas emissions and CO2 issues, but we’re planting more trees in historic neighborhoods that have been redlined that also have high rates of asthma. We’re removing lead water lines from daycare centers and removing lead paint from homes. And we’re putting Cleveland back on the map in a way we’ve never been before in terms of our ability to be a two-waterfront city with nearly $5 billion of economic investments on our waterfronts. We’re talking about a real vision and real results.

And we’ve done this before as Democrats—President Obama won the state twice. Democrats can win Ohio again, but we need a clear vision, a vision tied to real results, and the courage to organize and talk and listen and campaign everywhere across the state. If we do that, we can make Ohio not just a purple state again, but a blue state again, in my opinion.

Dan Koh: And as president of the Democratic Mayors Association, you’re talking with thousands of mayors all the time about what they’re hearing in their communities. So what are you hearing to this end on this vision? Because I think you are not alone in being a Democratic mayor in a state or in a community that may largely have seen this kind of transition. I mean, we all saw the map after the election of the shift. So what are you hearing, and what messages can others learn that may have similar dynamics, whether they’re a Democratic leader or an independent leader in communities that have seen this shift nationally?

Justin Bibb: Mayors are delivering, and that’s the constant message. Mayors are also good communicators on how these drastic federal cuts are impacting working-class Americans. From Madison, Wisconsin, to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, to Nashville, Tennessee, there are countless stories of unemployed federal workers who no longer have the ability to have a good-paying job, or public education impacts where kids no longer have access to special ed or Pell Grants to go to a good college. We are seeing these drastic cuts, and as the Democratic Party works to fight and rebuild and really rethink the next chapter of the party, it’s important that mayors have a leading voice and a big seat at the table to help us win more elections and do better to deliver for our residents.

Dan Koh: I’m sure you have so many stories from Cleveland to that end, but do you have a specific story of a family or person that comes to mind when you think about the implications of what’s happening at the federal level locally?

Justin Bibb: You know, Cleveland is one of the most food-insecure cities in the country, and our local food bank is getting their funding cut—millions of pounds of food being turned away. That’s immoral. That does not speak to the values of our country. And so we must continue to fight these erratic cuts. I think we all agree that we need to cut waste, fraud, and abuse from our government, but there’s a way to do it. I think former President Clinton, Vice President Al Gore, had a good playbook on how to do it. But until we bring common sense back into the equation, we’re going to continue to see these devastating impacts at the local level.

Dan Koh: It’s always fascinating. You know, in Boston, I experienced something that you’re probably experiencing, which is, you know, these nonprofits, these incredible programs that are doing so much good for families that you hear all the time—they could lose $20,000 of a budget, right, of millions, and that would just literally equate to the math of 20 more people going hungry. And so I think what people make the mistake of in D.C. all the time—and I’m sure you’re experiencing this when you come down here and talk to them—is, you know, for them, oftentimes, it’s just numbers. But when you take it down to the level you’re at, it’s not waste, fraud, and abuse—it’s literally someone’s future, right, to be able to eat.

And so the last question I have for you is, you know, you talked about—you started this conversation talking about how everywhere you go, people are talking to you, giving you a very clear opinion of their opinion of you and the current state of affairs. And we talked a little bit about the map and how so many people in the last election may have voted for President Trump—a lot of people stayed home as well. And so if someone in your community came up to you, or you went to them, and you went to a block party or something like that, and it was clear to you that they were disengaged or had formerly been a Democratic voter and then voted for President Trump—listeners all around the country are trying to figure out how they can do something right and how they can inspire their neighbors or their friends to get back engaged in the process and maybe even get excited about the Democratic Party. What’s the one message or line that you would want to give listeners to be able to inspire that excitement again?

Justin Bibb: Let me be very frank with you, Dan. This moment is not about Donald Trump. It’s not about the Republican Party. It’s not about the Democratic Party. It’s not about you or me. It’s about everyday people, and it’s about whether or not we are going to achieve the promise of this great American experiment that made my story possible, that made your story possible, and so many stories possible across the country. But we still have a nation where too many dreams are being deferred, and the biggest competition we have in our electoral process isn’t from the Democratic Party or the Republican Party or Donald Trump—it’s the enemy of the couch, the enemy of apathy, the enemy that government actually doesn’t work.

And what people can do in this moment is to step up and lead with their voice, lead with their values, be a part of the democratic process. As President Obama said over the weekend, you know, citizen is the most powerful office in the country. And when I think about the arc of the country, there are countless examples of everyday people who stood for something that changed our ability to make the promise of this great American experiment possible. You think about Rosa Parks—and in that moment, Rosa didn’t have a position. It was Governor George Wallace who had a position. But what Rosa did was she mobilized her power as a citizen. And we need some more Rosas to be a part of what’s happening—whether it’s a protest, whether it’s mobilizing funding to support a local food bank, whether it’s organizing at Board of Education meetings to articulate why we should fight against these cuts at the Department of Education, whether it’s local small businesses advocating to the administration on why these erratic tariff policies are undermining our ability to grow our economies in small towns and big cities across the country.

Everybody’s got a role to play, and you just can’t tweet about it or get on TikTok or Instagram or Facebook—you got to do something about it. And we need everybody in this country to have their own moment and do something. And I’m just trying to do my small little part as mayor of the great city of Cleveland, Ohio.

Dan Koh: Mr. Mayor, thank you for joining us on the People’s Cabinet.

Justin Bibb: Thanks for having me.

Dan Koh: I’m Dan Koh. That’s it for the People’s Cabinet today. Follow us on social media, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and see you on Tuesdays for new episodes. Let’s go.